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Re: Xweb first thoughts

Jeremy Hughes
 

Hi Tim,

Anyway you can find the output from my afternoon's play with Xway here with a download link to the file at the foot of that page.
That looks good - well done!

I’ll download your document and take a look at it tomorrow.

Jeremy


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Tim Plumb
 

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 10:37 AM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
That looks good - well done!

I’ll download your document and take a look at it tomorrow.
You probably know that I'm not adverse to shoe-horning things in that aren't currently supported yet so watch out for scripts that load stylesheets and jQuery (in place of HTML markup) as well as extra code to replicate the columned output (header and footer).

Expect it to be a mess and you won't be far off. Hopefully the more I use the app the more things will make sense.


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Marcus V Do Carmo
 

Nice work, Tim. 
For me, it's going to take a while until I get used to Xway, to make something like this as I was used to do in Freeway 7, but yes, as Jeremy mentioned, using a template will help a lot

Best,
Marcus



On Nov 7, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Tim Plumb <tim@...> wrote:

I spent a few hours today playing with the Xweb b1 beta and other than an odd (editing text) hard crash the application did well. I'm still trying to get my head around the interface and specifically the inheritance of styles. I'm sure I've created a less than optimal set of CSS!

Overall I think this is a good idea as it forces you to think about styles much as they are used online.

My biggest concern in that a lot of Freeway users (especially Express users) have grown used to creating their web pages like a painting; placing elements where they like, sizing them how they want and styling the elements as they see fit. This care-free approach to web design can be great and is one of the things that made Freeway so very popular back in the day. Xway, by its very nature, is a more considered environment and makes you think about layout and styling from a right brain perspective. You can't (for the most part) just drag and drop stuff on your page, style it and hit publish.

Don't get me wrong the web has matured and web design is more than just table based layouts these days but I'm concerned that the structured nature of building a page in Xweb will be a turn off to users who still expect to design pages in a DTP-like fashion. Still, maybe these people are using Blocs, WordPress and Divi or something similar where they can assemble their sites from a selection of prebuilt components.

Anyway you can find the output from my afternoon's play with Xweb here with a download link to the file at the foot of that page.


--
Marcus V. Do Carmo
Miami, Florida 
iMac 27" - Mac OS 10.14.6 - Freeway Pro 7
http://www.plusartgraphics.com


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Jeremy Hughes
 

You probably know that I'm not adverse to shoe-horning things in that aren't currently supported
I'm actually pleased that you managed to shoe-horn the things you wanted - it shows that Xway works for power users as well as normal users!

- as Freeweb did ;)

Jeremy


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Tim Plumb
 

Xweb certainly shows promise but b1 is still a little too lacking (for me at least) to do any real work with it. I found it a little like working with Express in that I had to be a little bit creative about adding things to the page that the app didn't support. Those will come in time I'm sure.

A couple of things that I spotted that I think could be improved on are;
1. The CSS Markup and JavaScript Markup areas are tiny! I didn't add to much to these but found myself having to copy and paste the code in from a text editor as I couldn't manage editing the code in those areas. I'd suggest replacing the text area for a button that either opens a sheet or a file in an external editor. Extra points if you can use the Freeway trick of underlining the button text to show if there is content in there.

2. The +- controls for the Para and Span Extended Properties and Attributes don't display. They appear to be there as you can click where they should be and the app pops up a welcoming Name/ Value bubble (I've never seen inputs in a bubble before). This is more of a bug than a suggestion.


Re: Xway b1 - idea: CSS blank canvas or CSS paint by numbers

Tim Plumb
 

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 04:10 AM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
It’s not a webkit view, but we take it as a compliment that you thought it might be :)
I had hoped the design mode would be 'web based' in some way as one of the things that I felt held Freeway back against competitors that simply implemented a 'web inspector' type view was that however good the design view was it couldn't really cope with code that it didn't understand. In a browser view (webkit or otherwise) all of that interpretation and rendering of the page code is done internally and should be identical to browsers that use the same rendering engine. Freeway (and is sounds Xweb too) had to interpret that page code itself which meant keeping up with the moving market a bit of a struggle for a small company with limited resources.

The page view is good, don't get me wrong, and I'm impressed by how it just feels like the final page but I wonder how we'll be able to keep up when asked to render and edit embedded or extended items.

The Blocs app, just by way of comparison, appears to be a webkit rendering engine that essentially allows users to edit the page code and post processes all of the changes to the code when the site is published. It isn't too dissimilar to a web inspector that tracks changes and then applies those changes on output.


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Jeremy Hughes
 
Edited


1. The CSS Markup and JavaScript Markup areas are tiny! I didn't add to much to these but found myself having to copy and paste the code in from a text editor as I couldn't manage editing the code in those areas. I'd suggest replacing the text area for a button that either opens a sheet or a file in an external editor.
I think we expect people to copy/paste code from a text editor (that's what I do). Xway (in contrast to Freeway) tries to avoid being excessively modal, and sheets are a modal option - you can't do anything else in that document until you dismiss the sheet. Having a text view (that can display at least part of the markup and which allows you to copy/paste all of the markup) seems like a better option than having a button (underlined or not).

Jeremy

 


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Jeremy Hughes
 

I can't reproduce "The +- controls for the Para and Span Extended Properties and Attributes don't display". Are there some steps that I'm missing?

The bubble is a popover (NSPopover). Calendar is an example of an Apple program that has inputs in popovers.

Jeremy


Re: Xway b1 - idea: CSS blank canvas or CSS paint by numbers

Jeremy Hughes
 

Whether we use webkit in future is something that we can revisit if we want to. Xway is pretty modular internally.

Webkit had serious issues when we used it in Freeway (e.g. for the Preview option), and I didn’t want to get bogged down with it when I started working on Xway.

[Webkit is Apple’s API to the underlying web engine. It’s quite limited in what it can do. It’s possible that we could use the underlying web engine directly, but it’s not something we would consider doing right now.]

NB Xway (not “Xweb”) rhymes with Freeway (not “Freeweb”)

Jeremy


Re: Xway b1 - idea: CSS blank canvas or CSS paint by numbers

David Owen
 

As an example of benefit of having a "Web based" view...

Tim’s demo “site” page has a good example of where a basic user would be mystified if set the peacock image to Max-width 100% and seeing 100% in Xway. But then the preview seeing a caption and its wrapper at a far smaller width restricting the image size.

But then again if having a HTML caption shouldn't it be using…

<figure>
<img src=“myimage.jpg">
<figcaption>Blah blah Blah...</figcaption>
</figure>

I’m assuming this is work in progress?

--

David Owen
http://www.davidowendesign.com

On 8 Nov 2019, at 10:01, Tim Plumb <tim@freewayactions.com> wrote:

I had hoped the design mode would be 'web based' in some way as one of the things that I felt held Freeway back against competitors that simply implemented a 'web inspector' type view was that however good the design view was it couldn't really cope with code that it didn't understand.


Re: Xway b1 - idea: CSS blank canvas or CSS paint by numbers

Jeremy Hughes
 

Hi David,

But then again if having a HTML caption shouldn't it be using…

<figure>
<img src=“myimage.jpg">
<figcaption>Blah blah Blah...</figcaption>
</figure>
I haven’t had time to look at Tim’s document yet, and maybe I’m misunderstanding your point, but you can create Figures and Figure Captions directly in Xway (select them from the Type popup in the Box Inspector).

I’m assuming this is work in progress?
Yes - that’s why we’re at version 0.1.

Jeremy


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Tim Plumb
 

https://xweb.plumb-design-dev.com/template1/screenshots/plus-minus.png

Mac OS High Sierra 10.13.6

I'll try it with a few more documents and keep and eye out for those controls.


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Jeremy Hughes
 

https://xweb.plumb-design-dev.com/template1/screenshots/plus-minus.png

Mac OS High Sierra 10.13.6

I'll try it with a few more documents and keep and eye out for those controls.
I’m not doubting you - just looking for a way to reproduce the problem!

Does it happen in a new document?

Can you provide a simple series of steps?

Does anyone else see this happening?

I haven’t run Xway in High Sierra recently.

Jeremy


Re: Xway b1 - idea: CSS blank canvas or CSS paint by numbers

Tim Plumb
 

I agree the image captions in that file aren't perfect. You shouldn't consider it an example or best practice but more of a playground that we can all poke about a bit and try and figure out the best ways to do things. If nothing else it provides a good starting point for discussions.

<figure> elements would be great to see in Xweb as they would do away with a lot of that styling and jQuery in that page.

I did think about keeping the peacock at max-width:50% (as is the default) but ended up adjusting this as well as the CSS styles for the caption wrapper to keep the image at half size. In retrospect I think you are right and I should have kept the design view inline with the output and adjusted the CSS to suit. I'll update that when I text revise the template.


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Tim Plumb
 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 04:31 AM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
I’m not doubting you - just looking for a way to reproduce the problem!

Does it happen in a new document?

Can you provide a simple series of steps?

Does anyone else see this happening?

I haven’t run Xway in High Sierra recently.
I'm sure you're not.

I just tried this on a new document (same Mac) but still get invisible + - controls for those elements.
Incidentally how can I edit the name field once added? I can edit the value without issue but the name is set in stone.
I can send a screenshot if you don't believe me! :-)
Thanks.


How do I: replace an image?

Tim Plumb
 

I can't seem to be able to replace an image I've inserted on a page. Do I need to delete it and reapply the styles I've added to it manually?


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Jeremy Hughes
 

Incidentally how can I edit the name field once added? I can edit the value without issue but the name is set in stone.
You can’t edit the name field (currently), because mostly you wouldn’t want to change an attribute into a completely different attribute and have it retain the same value.

If you make a mistake, it’s simple to delete the attribute and create a new one.

Jeremy


Re: Xway b1 - idea: CSS blank canvas or CSS paint by numbers

Jeremy Hughes
 

Hi Tim,

<figure> elements would be great to see in Xweb as they would do away with a lot of that styling and jQuery in that page.
They’re already there in Xway (not “Xweb” - is that some kind of autocorrect problem?)

1. Insert a box
2. Choose Figure from the Type popup

Is there some additional functionality that you need for figure and figcaption?

Jeremy


Re: How do I: replace an image?

Jeremy Hughes
 

I can't seem to be able to replace an image I've inserted on a page. Do I need to delete it and reapply the styles I've added to it manually?
Yes.

This is something that’s on our to-do list, although I’m not sure how far we’ll go with it.

Should people be able to convert a video into an image, or a form item into an image? Maybe in the first case, but I don’t think so in the second case: Freeway lets you do that (convert a form item into an image) but it restricts you from doing things that seem more obvious (like converting a passthrough image into a non-passthrough image).

What Xway definitely should allow people to do is to “locate” graphics. Note, however, that Xway has a slightly different concept of resources compared with Freeway: if you import the same resource twice it is the same resource in both places.

Jeremy


Re: How do I: replace an image?

Tim Plumb
 

I'll tell you what I was trying to do Jeremy and hopefully you'll see what I'm after.

I'd imported a picture of a peacock in that template test document only to find too late that I'd selected a 5.9mb file. I created a low resolution version of it to replace the original image with but couldn't figure out how to swap the old image for the new one. If the original file had been updated in the Finder then I'd expect Xweb simply to use this the next time it needed to publish or preview the site. In the end I deleted the image from the page and inserted the new one and reapplied the styles and custom classnames I'd attached the the original image.

I think your ideas of repurposing a video or other files as an image are good but I think my question is much more of a fundamental 'swap this for that' type of issue.

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