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Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Tim Plumb
 

Thanks for the clarification Jeremy.

I think this is a shame as I tended to use Freeway by setting up a core set of styles and editing them as I built a site. Applying one of those styles to an item is a lot easier than trying to remember what all of the elements are that go to make up a style (padding, colour, border etc).

I totally appreciate that most users tended to style their elements in an ad-hoc fashion and that is fine although, as you say, unless they get the styling exactly correct each time you'd end up with dozens of styles that all were pretty much identical. I've seen Freeway stylesheets that are huge and bloated with hundreds of class styles that were (I suspect) only used once.

As I say default styles are a good start but they can't be used to quickly turn a link (for example) into a button (unless you want all of your links looking like buttons).


Re: Xway b1 - idea: CSS blank canvas or CSS paint by numbers

Jeremy Hughes
 

I guess what I meant to say was 'Is Xway's design view a webkit or webkit hybrid?'. If you can throw any HTML or CSS at the application and have it render in the design view then we can do a lot more with the application in terms of using frameworks and other foreign code.
It’s not a webkit view, but we take it as a compliment that you thought it might be :)

Xway uses Cocoa views (and subclasses of Cocoa views) to draw in the Layout view. If you look at how borders (for example) are drawn in different browsers, you can see that Xway’s borders are not exactly the same as Safari borders, or Firefox borders, or Chrome borders. Dotted borders are a good example. CSS doesn’t specify *exactly* how dotted borders should be drawn. In this case we compared different browsers and wrote code that reflected what we thought was the best implementation.

[To see how browsers differ, preview a box that has a fairly wide dotted border and uses different colours (or border widths) for each border edge.]

Jeremy


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Jeremy Hughes
 

I think this is a shame as I tended to use Freeway by setting up a core set of styles and editing them as I built a site. Applying one of those styles to an item is a lot easier than trying to remember what all of the elements are that go to make up a style (padding, colour, border etc).
If you managed to prevent Freeway from generating a huge number of temporary styles from your core set, then you’ve done better than I ever managed!

I don’t actually know how to apply padding or border within a Freeway style. Sure, you could use Extended to do this, but then you wouldn’t see the padding or border in Freeway’s Layout view. Is that what you were doing or is there another way of doing this?

Freeway has very limited support for applying styles to items. Here’s something you could try:

1. Draw a box in Freeway and give it a yellow background
2. Type some text within it
3. Create a style (.style1) and give it a cyan background
4. Apply this style to the box that you drew
5. Preview in a browser
6. >> What do you expect to see in the browser? What do you see in Freeway? Are they at all similar?

Or (slightly differently): how do you set a paragraph to be red? You could select the paragraph within Freeway and colour it red, but that doesn’t actually set a red style on the paragraph - what it does is create a red span within the paragraph. So then you create a “red” style using the Styles dialog and apply it to the paragraph - but this does exactly the same thing. If you actually want to style the paragraph you have to add some kind of dummy paragraph attribute (e.g. align left) so that you can force the style to be a paragraph style.

Within Xway, all you need to do is to choose Red in the Paragraph Inspector.

As I say default styles are a good start but they can't be used to quickly turn a link (for example) into a button (unless you want all of your links looking like buttons).
You can do anything you like using Extended Properties.

Xway is currently at version 0.1. There are lots of things that will be added in future versions, but we want to add stuff that works properly and doesn’t have the problems that Freeway suffered from.

Jeremy


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Steve
 

I too think it's a shame that user defined styles are not available yet.

I have looked at the css code for my cotswoldengrineeringsupplies website, and there aren't any .style1 .style2 styles in there. I purposely tried to prevent that as I found there were some styles that were the same so I went through the whole site and replaced all the .style css with properly configured named styles.

For instance if I wanted a rounded corner box, I have a style that defines the border radius and it is quick to add that to the box, and it keeps the site looking good. The html code is easier to read as you can see what styles are applied to each element.

Most of the css styles are set up on the Masters Page so get carried on to the pages that they are based on.

I know it's early days for Xway, but this is a learning curve for us all, learning new ways and unlearning old and maybe bad habits.

One thing I liked about Freeway, you could always see if Freeway had added a .style1 to the list!

Steve.


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Jeremy Hughes
 

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your feedback!

I have looked at the css code for my cotswoldengrineeringsupplies website, and there aren't any .style1 .style2 styles in there. I purposely tried to prevent that as I found there were some styles that were the same so I went through the whole site and replaced all the .style css with properly configured named styles.
I think you’ve done a remarkable job in getting rid of Freeway's temporary styles!

Looking at your web site, it seems like you’ve relied heavily on using “tag styles” with lots of extended properties, so there is quite a bit of “hand-coding” in there. I would guess that the page looks quite different in the browser than it does in Freeway.

You’re what I would describe as a power user.

Freeway and Xway try to cater for power users as well as normal users. That’s one of the reasons that Xway already supports Extended Attributes and Extended Properties along with CSS and JavaScript Markup (and Markup items).

In your case I think you could do many of the same things in Xway:

1. If you want to set a class on a box, you can use Extended Attributes to do this
2. If you want to define your own CSS styles, you can use CSS Markup to do this

Most of the css styles are set up on the Masters Page so get carried on to the pages that they are based on.
We’re planning to support (individual) master pages in a future version of Xway, but you can define your own CSS styles on the document master page:

1. Go to the Document Inspector
2. Open the "Document: CSS Markup” section
3. Add any styles you like

Jeremy


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Steve
 

Thanks foe the kind words!

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 01:34 PM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
Looking at your web site, it seems like you’ve relied heavily on using “tag styles” with lots of extended properties, so there is quite a bit of “hand-coding” in there. I would guess that the page looks quite different in the browser than it does in Freeway.
Yes, that's true! What started as a simple site made with Freeway 4 back in 2009 has now grown to a fully e-com site made with Freeway 7 with a lot of extra bits added in mark up and all the pages as .php.
So it's not quite wisiwig, but you can see the structure of the pages and the page code has been annotated so that I know what bit does what.

I'll have a go with Xway and see how easy its is to do what I have done with Freeway

Steve.


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

max.izzat@...
 

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 12:10 PM, Tim Plumb wrote:
I think this is a shame as I tended to use Freeway by setting up a core set of styles and editing them as I built a site. Applying one of those styles to an item is a lot easier than trying to remember what all of the elements are that go to make up a style (padding, colour, border etc).

Hi, Tim, that's how I do it as well. 

At the end of a project, I don't want any temp styles... all the predefined ones are thought about, named correctly, ordered, so they cascade and already worked out based off the design, and this way before the construction begins and if things need changing or are introduced then I change them or add new styles.

The amount of work arounds I had to do to create templates that had a set of 'base' css items already constructed and in a way/order I wanted was really quite challenging and convoluted.  So any improvement on that would be nice.


Re: Xway feedback

David Owen
 

Hi Jeremy,

I’d also need access to adding code in various places on a page… after/before header, body etc.

--
David Owen

http://www.davidowendesign.com

On 7 Nov 2019, at 11:23, Jeremy Hughes <jeremy@softpress.com> wrote:

Hi David,

When previewing a X-way site (again I’m sure it’s on the list unless the plan is for a simplified site creator?)...

I have .html files defaulted to open my code editor. Freeway of course you could specifically choose a browser to preview of override this.
I’ve logged this as a suggestion, and I understand why it is useful to you!

It’s probably somewhere between a suggestion and a task - we’re mainly concentrating on core tasks at the moment, but this is something that I think we will look at when we have time.

Jeremy




Re: Xway feedback

Jeremy Hughes
 

Hi David

I’d also need access to adding code in various places on a page… after/before header, body etc.
This is definitely on our to-do list, and is mentioned under “Generic page markup” in the User Guide.

Jeremy


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Jeremy Hughes
 

Hi Steve,

I'll have a go with Xway and see how easy its is to do what I have done with Freeway
Let us know how you get on.

We’re definitely interested in adding power features to Xway, but we also need to implement basic functionality that isn’t there yet: pasted graphics, more support for copy/paste generally, Edit Resources view, and so on.

Jeremy


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

max.izzat@...
 

Hi Jeremy, as mentioned above, this is my starting point template, so you get an idea of what and how I setup Freeway. Basically, my template contains these (in my linked picture) styles, so I don't have to create any of the stuff from scrtach.

I then edit them, so they match the design Note that I order things in the way I want them to be published which also includes clustering the colours together and to achieve that I have had to work out a set of different interface hacks. So for example spaces before the style name elevates it up. Capitalisation also has a bearing on its published order. A style being named in the tag field also has an effect and so by a combination of all these techniques I can order them all. I have included an image of what you see in Freeway.

it's not an ideal solution, but it does work

https://share.getcloudapp.com/L1uY8GrK

I also have a predefined amount of folders and items within those folders, and a lot of those aren't HTML pages 

https://share.getcloudapp.com/WnuApe5y

I do appreciate what I have had to do isn't probably normal, but its something I have had to work, so my structure is a lot closer to what our developers need. 

Obviously, I understand this is day 3 of beta 1, but it would be nice to think that at some point in the future 'user' defined styles and ordering them could be looked at.

Again I'm not complaining... just my thoughts for what they are worth.


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Jeremy Hughes
 

Cheers Max!

I've logged an issue that contains some of the feedback in this thread along with your screenshots and the screenshot that Richard van Heukelum posted earlier.

Do CSS Markup and Extended Attributes (for setting class names) meet any of your needs?

Jeremy


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Tim Plumb
 

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 04:36 AM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
I don’t actually know how to apply padding or border within a Freeway style. Sure, you could use Extended to do this, but then you wouldn’t see the padding or border in Freeway’s Layout view. Is that what you were doing or is there another way of doing this?
Oh most of what I did in Freeway ended up in the Extended dialog. That feature alone kept Freeway relevant for me for many years. :-)

Freeway has very limited support for applying styles to items. Here’s something you could try:

1. Draw a box in Freeway and give it a yellow background
2. Type some text within it
3. Create a style (.style1) and give it a cyan background
4. Apply this style to the box that you drew
5. Preview in a browser
6. >> What do you expect to see in the browser? What do you see in Freeway? Are they at all similar?
Reading down this list I had in my mind's eye that the box would become cyan (as it does). The fact that Freeway sets the text background to cyan was always something I'd ignored as I'd imagine that these styles were originally intended to be applied at a text level rather than a box level and that the rendering engine never really got updated to deal with that scenario. There were a few usability rough edges to Freeway that, after a while, you'd just learn to ignore as you know the final code output would be fine.


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Jeremy Hughes
 
Edited

Oh most of what I did in Freeway ended up in the Extended dialog. That feature alone kept Freeway relevant for me for many years. :-)
Xway has Extended Attributes and Extended Properties sections in the Document, Page, Box, Paragraph, Link, and Span Inspectors.

Extended Attributes are HTML attributes, and Extended Properties are style properties.

Reading down this list I had in my mind's eye that the box would become cyan (as it does).
Not in Safari and Firefox...

[The box is yellow because ID attributes have higher specificity than class attributes.]

Jeremy


Xweb crash report

Tim Plumb
 

Hi Jeremy,
I've managed to crash Xweb this afternoon while putting together a sample page. I've got the standard Apple crash report if you think it contains anything of use.
Its about 85K in size.
Thanks,
Tim.


Re: Xweb crash report

Jeremy Hughes
 

Cheers Tim!

A crash report might be helpful. You could send it to support at softpress dot com.

Is it something that you can reproduce?

Jeremy


Xweb first thoughts

Tim Plumb
 
Edited

I spent a few hours today playing with the Xweb b1 beta and other than an odd (editing text) hard crash the application did well. I'm still trying to get my head around the interface and specifically the inheritance of styles. I'm sure I've created a less than optimal set of CSS!

Overall I think this is a good idea as it forces you to think about styles much as they are used online.

My biggest concern in that a lot of Freeway users (especially Express users) have grown used to creating their web pages like a painting; placing elements where they like, sizing them how they want and styling the elements as they see fit. This care-free approach to web design can be great and is one of the things that made Freeway so very popular back in the day. Xway, by its very nature, is a more considered environment and makes you think about layout and styling from a right brain perspective. You can't (for the most part) just drag and drop stuff on your page, style it and hit publish.

Don't get me wrong the web has matured and web design is more than just table based layouts these days but I'm concerned that the structured nature of building a page in Xweb will be a turn off to users who still expect to design pages in a DTP-like fashion. Still, maybe these people are using Blocs, WordPress and Divi or something similar where they can assemble their sites from a selection of prebuilt components.

Anyway you can find the output from my afternoon's play with Xweb here with a download link to the file at the foot of that page.


Re: Xweb crash report

Tim Plumb
 

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 10:07 AM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
A crash report might be helpful. You could send it to support at softpress dot com.

Is it something that you can reproduce?
Thanks Jeremy. I'll sent that along later.
I did try and crash it again but it all seemed fine. All I was doing was editing some text so maybe it was just one of those things.


Re: Xweb first thoughts

Jeremy Hughes
 

My biggest concern in that a lot of Freeway users (especially Express users) have grown used to creating their web pages like a painting; placing elements where they like, sizing them how they want and styling the elements as they see fit. This care-free approach to web design can be great and is one of the things that made Freeway so very popular back in the day. Xway, by its very nature, is a more considered environment and makes you think about layout and styling from a right brain perspective. You can't (for the most part) just drag and drop stuff on your page, style it and hit publish.
The problem with this approach (putting stuff anywhere you like) is that it creates fixed-size pages that don’t adapt to different devices. We abandoned this kind of layout with our Freeway 7 templates, but Freeway made it difficult to do inflow layouts - I generally recommend that users start with a template and see if they can adapt it.

If someone wants to place items anywhere on the page, they can do this with Xway:

1. Change Position to Absolute
2. Place the box anywhere you want on the page

This is equivalent to using “layer” items in Freeway.

It probably won’t look good, even on desktop browsers. Absolute-positioned items are taken out of the page flow, so they don’t adjust to take account of changes in size and position that affect other items.

Jeremy


Re: Will Xway support user defined styles?

Tim Plumb
 

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 08:11 AM, Jeremy Hughes wrote:
Not in Safari and Firefox...

[The box is yellow because ID attributes have higher specificity than class attributes.]
I now see what you mean. That's a tricky one.
In my rush to test that out I'd neglected to make the item a layer (div). You see sometimes a table layout can save the day! :-)

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